Welcome And MAD Drinks Preview

Marc Curtis 0:00

Welcome to the Pioneers Podcast. I'm Marc Curtis. Um today really interesting conversation with somebody who effectively went straight from university into the world of building a new brand, entrepreneurialism, so I found a called Wikipedia. He's the founder or co-founder of a company called Mad, which stands for Make a Difference. And the the fundamental idea of their drinks is that every single flavor, every single uh product that they sell is directly linked to a project which uh aims to um address one of the sustainable development projects on had uh a great chat with Ambroise about um some of some of the challenges that he's faced, how he's managed to uh build a brand in really a staggeringly short amount of time, and and we we talk about that briefly. Joining us at the Future Work conference this year on June 18th in Brussels, and he will be appearing on a panel around sustainability, joining some of our uh big suppliers as well, talking about some of the challenges in developing a sustainable brand or brand interest teacher. So, without further ado, let's listen to my conversation with Ambrose Le. Thank you so much for uh joining us on the Pioneers Podcast. Really good to meet you. Just very briefly, I'll say this about you. You're a Swiss beverage brand owner. You're the founder of a or co-founder of a company called MAD, which I believe starts for Make a Difference. And it's a Swiss beverage brand built on a simple idea, which is that drinks that taste good should also do good. And I believe you've sold over a million cans in your first two years. You studied at EHL and HEC in Paris, but you've gone into what is ra actually a radically sort of different career journey. So I'd love to hear more about that. But first of all, you know, tell me a little bit more about yourself. What are you doing in Switzerland? Is that your home country, or have you m moved there from France? You know, what's what's your story?

From Hospitality Plans To MAD

Ambroise Leclercq 2:03

So yeah, nice to meet you. Thanks for for hosting me. Indeed, yeah. So I'm, as my name suggests, Amboise Leclerc is is a pretty French name. Um, both of my parents are French, but I've never lived there except one year in Paris when I studied there. So I'm I'm a typical, let's say, international person where I moved around and moved out every three years from throughout my childhood. So I lived in as a kid in Russia, Turkmenistan, Poland, arrived in Geneva in early 2000s, and then moved within Switzerland, between Geneva and Zurich, and then even lived with my parents in Dubai, and then came back to Switzerland and became Swiss actually at the age of 16, 17, uh 16, yes. And um then, as you know, then did the army because it's mandatory. I was gonna say, did you have to do the national service as well? Yeah, I spent a year and a half there. Actually, uh, well, it's a love and hate relationship, but I actually uh liked it, and I spent almost uh a year and a half there, and then became because you started as a soldier and then become a um, I think you call it sub-officer, and then I became an officer in the army. Um, and then Fanny decided it was time to study or do something, so joining EHL with always the pursuit of working in, let's say, food or beverage environments. Initially, I wanted to open a restaurant, and then COVID hit, and I thought that restaurant might not be such a great idea, and then I joined, I should say, Paris for and it's called an entrepreneurial um master. It's basically you you spent a year trying to build up a company, and this is how like the journey has ended in Switzerland, back in Switzerland and Zurich, where I found it's mad make a difference with the idea of having an impact with every product that I sell, with as well as being financially sustainable. So I mean trying to that's incredible.

Marc Curtis 4:06

So you've you've literally it's almost your first your first kind of venture has been to launch an entirely new brand. I mean, I'm interested to understand why you specifically wanted to do something that was focused on doing good as your first as your first time.

Building Impact Into Every Can

Ambroise Leclercq 4:23

Well, as you know, may oh well I'm I don't know if I'm Gen Z or millennial or in between, but I recently read an article that was explaining this our generation has to do things that make sense, and that spending time in an office is not always made for us. So when I created the company, I wanted it to make sense or at least try and make sense. And it was a mix of first opportunity, like business opportunity. We had um potential clients that was willing to trust us from from the beginning, and then it was well like okay, if we have this opportunity, let's try and at least create a concept and an idea that actually does does good. And so at first, we wanted to create our own um project, so our own impact project, and then we realized that we couldn't as at the same time create a beverage company and having our own sustainable AR NGO at the same time, so we decided to trust or and to find projects to support. And um this is how the this MAT or Make a Difference Math uh was created. Um and we we we give about 10% of our margin to to depending on the product, but to different projects, and each each drinks, each flavor supports a project.

Marc Curtis 5:43

So I mean that's that to me is already an absolutely fascinating, unique selling point. And I'm struggling to actually even think of any specific uh consumer brands that do a similar job. But when you're thinking about what projects to support, or how how much to support them with, or even what flavours you need to relate to those projects, what's the process there? And it's probably worth mentioning as well, and I know this that you're using the SDGs, the sustainable development goals, as as the kind of the framework to identify the different types of project that you're looking at. So is the goal eventually to have a a drink for every SDG, or or are you picking out specific ones that are more relevant to you?

Ambroise Leclercq 6:24

Well, it's it's a great point, great question, because there's the initial uh thinking, the initial concept, the goal, and then the the reality, and then what we can well, and then the journey. So when we started, we had indeed always which we still have the goal of having 17 different products, aiming at the 17 different goals, and the goal was to create products trying to as much as we could to link what was inside the drink, the taste, and the goal. But we realized that it was not always the case. So, for example, we had the product that had it was a vital, and we still have a vitamin water with added iron in it. Therefore, we supported uh, I think it was goal number five, which is gender equality, and we supported a project that specifically helped young women that uh suffers from anemia or were uh stigmatized because of their period. So this this was a good like storyline, and the story was great, but in the end, when we launched on the market, we we realized uh somehow either the taste or the flavor or the design or something, so it didn't rotate enough, so we had to stop that um that product. Another one is cascar.

Marc Curtis 7:44

When you say rotate, when you say rotate specifically, what do you mean by rotate?

Ambroise Leclercq 7:48

Yeah, so it's a specific industry word, meaning it's the daily sales of um the products within um a say of fridge. So Right, okay. Sorry, sorry to jump, sorry to jump in it.

Marc Curtis 7:59

Yeah, but so because this is one of the things you said that you know, if a if a concept doesn't mean anything if the product doesn't rotate, and this is kind of a classic example of that, right? So you have something that that links really strongly to a goal, doesn't taste great, or whatever, so people aren't buying it, so consequently you have to re-examine it.

Ambroise Leclercq 8:19

Yeah, exactly. And the way we chose the other projects, I mean it was a mix, it's a very we had the idea and then created the company and then launched on the market within four months. So we had to quickly found find so it's pretty quick, and we had to be very uh very startup about it because uh well we needed to find quickly projects to support, create the recipes, the concepts, everything. And what we essentially did is try and find NGO with which we've had a good relationship or we could have a good feeling, sorry, with the founders and projects that were concrete and tangible, meaning that we could either somehow say, okay, with that amount given for every canceled, we could have X amount of impact. For example, we have one that through a NGO called Everwave, which removes trash from rivers. And they've got a really cool special boat that goes on lakes in different places to um catch plastics and waste. And for that it was pretty clear we know that for every box that we sell of the drink, there's one kilogram of trash removed with the money that goes to them. Right.

Marc Curtis 9:32

So I'm I'm I I I'm I'm almost tempted to go back a little bit because you said that you went from effectively concept to product within four months. And I know or I've met a few people who are working on various different drinks. Beverage is a absolutely hot topic right now. It's it continues to be an incredibly competitive world to be in, especially in consumer. Talk me through that. How do you go from from concept to product in four months? What what kind of hurdles did you face? What difficulties did you face? And I guess as well, and maybe we can come back around to it as well, as a startup, how did you fund it? Because clearly all of this required a bit of belief, a bit of investment, and an awful lot of conversations with supply chain and and ingredient manufacturers and packaging manufacturers and all of that kind of stuff. I'm, you know, it sounds like a lot.

Ambroise Leclercq 10:23

Yeah, the the stars had to be aligned. In a sense, we didn't have much of a choice because we promised um to a client a product. So we had to be fast. Right. And when you're once you you have that um in mind, then solutions are are found out can be found quickly. Um but I was I was not alone, so my co-founders um they're a bit a little well, I wouldn't say older, but let's say they're a bit more mature in the beta beverage market than me. And they um one had worked for Gred Bull, for example, and had co-founded um a beverage brand in Switzerland, which then he sold. So he had the contacts to suppliers and producers and logistics and the others as well. And this is how we could quickly come up with a solution. And also for creating the recipe, we have another company on the side of the small one that manufactures um in like a very crafty, well, professional but crafty way, uh sort of syrups that then you mix with water and to make iced. So we had the knowledge, or we have the knowledge to um create beverages. Didn't have the industrial means to to to scale it, but we had the initial setup to just try and do the test and and make the first recipes.

Marc Curtis 11:52

I mean, so so what it it almost sounds a little I mean it's funny you should mention Red Bull because it it sounds a little bit like the Red Bull story, which is you almost start with the brand concept and you you kind of get the you get the the interest in the idea, which is that you're supporting SDGs, that you're trying to do good, you know, it's a given that it's going to taste great, but but actually you know that if you've got the right contacts, you can do the branding, you can do the you can do the the the formulation and and so on and so forth. It's more about getting the momentum behind the idea itself. So just going back to your comment about concept means nothing without good rotation, uh was there any point at which you looked at it and thought actually the concept itself might be the barrier to to shifting shifting units to to I'm gonna use rotation all the time now. It's my new it's my new word that I'm gonna use whenever I buy a drink. I'm gonna I'm gonna rotate myself a drink. But but do you know what I mean? So flavour obviously is a hugely important thing, and I know we've spoken before about how strict you are on making sure that it has to taste amazing, but conceptually, is that as important for people who are buying it? Does that is that the is that enough of a differentiator?

Ambroise Leclercq 13:01

Absolutely so. Oh my um uh yes, no, um I'll try and answer your question. So the most important rule, and we learned it well the hard way, let's say, is taste, taste, and taste. It's a bit like uh in real estate where it's location, location, location. So we realized so we had different, we did different design versions, for example, and and and we started when we once we launched the product, we did a recall, very floral design, and we tried to put forward our impact story, and we tried to create we created names to try and link the taste and the impact, for example. We had one called Reloft because it was made from an upcycled product called the Cascara, which is the coffee fruit, and then at the same time we supported through that product um a uh the Everwave project which removes trash um plastic from rivers and then reuses it and recycles it. So we we really tried to try and bring all that together in one package, but it was too much information for the consumer. Then after six, I don't know, a few months, we we I mean, to be honest, after a year, we realized that um it was it was good for um let's say the early adopters, the one that really believes be believe in in in the story, but for because it's a mass consumer product and it needs to be on the shelves of the and it's not yet there, but on every retailer in Switzerland and in Europe, it's gotta be simple. And because time span and people, consumers, they've gotta have two second decision time to actually choose a new product and say, hey, why not let's let's let's try that. And then there's that's that's the first step. And then the second step is after they try it, say, tastes good. I want to buy it again. And then usually they try and understand, oh, that's a cool brand, and and at least that's the way we we I mean I'm still learning, so don't know if you're gonna be able to do that. I mean, I guess that's the point, right? That's the way we feel. Yeah.

Marc Curtis 15:08

Because it's it's in a way it's it's almost an entirely new not category, but a way of selling drinks, right? We've had coffees that are fair trade and and people will make a decision about potentially buying something because the sourcing is better or or what have you. And and I guess in fashion and and certainly in circularity, people are making decid d decisions based on the provenance of the materials that are used in in products that they buy. But uh drinks are such an impulse purchase, aren't they? That as you say, it needs to tell a story uh immediately on the shelf. And what it sounds like you're saying to me is that actually the thing that sells your drinks first is uh the taste, well, the design or the eye-catching nature of the packaging, followed by the taste, and then that gives people the opportunity to understand that what they've just done is potentially a good thing, and that will hopefully give you that uh loyalty that you're looking for, right?

Ambroise Leclercq 16:04

Yes, and in addition to that, because it's um let's say a B2B2C market, and uh in order to be in fridge or at Lyreco, for example, there's a buyer and um category, a product team to convince. Actually, usually the story is what attracts them and differentiates ourselves from from and then once it's in the fridge, directly within reach of consumers, then it's taste and design right and test.

Marc Curtis 16:36

I get it I get it, I get it. So it's it's a two-stage process in a way. So you've you've got two markets. That's what we realized, yes.

Ambroise Leclercq 16:42

After we thought it would like to to be honest, that at the beginning when we created the concept, we really thought, like, hey, like we need to be sustainable, like that's the where the way the world is, you know, that's that's the that's what we need to do, it makes sense, it what that's what we need to put forward. Actually, taste is is is important but secondary in the sense that you know that's the whole concept, but actually it's a bit it was too conceptualized, let's say, and then if when it comes to impulse buying, then it needs to be straightforward and simple. So we try to really simplify as much as we could the design of the drinks, and so the front of the can says what the product is, and doesn't explain there's a little mark here that says what the can what what the impact does, but what's the first thing that you see is the brand and uh and the and the product category. And then at the back you've got a little explanation and a QR code for people to that are curious, but I'd say um I don't have percentages, but um it's probably quite low on on people that actually go and find the look at the story. Um but then that's what probably keeps us uh going is is the impact that we make and that people are willing to buy and repurchase because of that and the taste.

Marc Curtis 18:05

And and if a if if a retailer or or a uh a seller is saying to you that you know they like the product, but they think that the impact story is adding too much cost, or it feels like there's a there's a premium that they're paying and and they don't believe in that you know, or they want a cheaper version of it. I mean, what's typically what's your response? If have you had conversations like that where they're coming in and saying, you know, shave a shave a couple of cents off the off the price, and maybe we'll think about it. I guess I'm guessing you've had conversations like that.

Ambroise Leclercq 18:36

Yeah, conversation like that. No, um it's fine. Well, to be honest, it depends on the on the markets. We're not yet in retail. When I mean retail is big supermarkets for that reason. Because we're a little bit premium, let's say. We're competitive. Um the idea is to have so it's not to make buyer the buyer's life complicated. So what our claim is that it's a built-in impact, so there's no additional cost to it, meaning that our margin is smaller, so we need to make more volume and sell more. Um so we could still be in in retail, but we're not aiming so much at retail now because it's not our strategy and and and we would have to reduce even uh the the price even more. I don't know if I was clear.

Marc Curtis 19:30

No, that that makes a lot of sense. I think and and I think it's really fascinating actually. I mean, obviously Lyrico and and the sponsors of this podcast are a B2B company. But what I think is really, really interesting from my perspective is that I see a real I wouldn't say untapped because I think it's a growing market, but I I see an incredible market for workplace beverages and oh look at you living the brand, swing knocking it back. But I see an incredible opportunity for beverages and break room drinks that that go beyond teas and coffees, that the sort of the obvious stuff. And and I'm seeing more and more now in the space that we work in in Silver Square, for example, there are always brands doing promotions for their nootropic drinks or functional drinks or you know, productivity-based drinks, all of that kind of stuff. So I've so I I absolutely get why it is you're focusing on the B2B to C market. Um just going back a a a step, and I'm kind of interested again in the start-up story, because I think you know you you strike me as some somebody who is has found the right team to work with and and you've got a really clear vision of what you want to do. But what's been the the biggest uh challenge that you've had to overcome? The biggest the biggest you know, I won't say failure, um, but they always say that we learn from our failures, especially in the start-up world. So what what's been the biggest thing that you've had to overcome that that now looking back you recognize that it was probably a process that you had to go through, but but nonetheless it was it was probably the wrong direction or the wrong choices were made.

Ambroise Leclercq 21:01

Well, there are a lot of challenges. It's a real world, let's say it's a it's not a digital product, so you need to produce it, you need to store it, you need to sell it. So that's one aspect, uh which is called cash flow. And the second one is finding the right product at the right time for the right market. So and we tried about nine, I think, recipes or even ten in different designs, and realizing that the team like finding the right taste is extremely difficult. So we had we thought that for example the cascava, the the the one made from the coffee fruit, was gonna be the one that's gonna perform because it's it's new, it's sustainable, it's um upcycled, it tastes great, it's special, but it was a bit too special. And then we had an we have another one, which is the cooking water, which well comes from Vietnam, so it's not that sustainable because you have to bring it over, but it's the one that. That works the most. And while some argue that it is sustainable if it's used as a replacement for milk or this kind of things, but essentially the market dictates what works and what doesn't work. And it was it took us and takes for drinks, it takes about a year to know if the product works or not, because that's the time it takes to produce, have in stock, then try and sell it to buyers and then have it in the fridge, and then see how long it lasts in a fridge and how fast it rotates or fat how fast it sells within um given amount of time and see how many facings you depending on how many facings or how many um products you have in a fridge compared to what's within that small closed environment. I'd say that's that was quite it still is quite a challenge to understand which because what's special about MAD is that it's it's a multic multi-category beverage brand. And our goal was, as you said, B2B, and we're a lot in like working environments, and this is most of our markets, is is bureau and fridge uh offices. And so we decided to have a range of products that serve different needs from waking up to a hydration, recovery, and then why not sleep, etc. Because we have to aim at the 17 different goals. And then I lost myself.

Marc Curtis 23:19

No, but that's but that's but that's so what what it sounds like doing is.

Ambroise Leclercq 23:22

So it's super difficult, and then we try different products and we see what works and what doesn't work. And takes it takes time.

Trends Less Sugar More Function

Marc Curtis 23:30

So you so you've got effectively got functional drinks then. So you're not just looking at flavor, you're also looking at giving people access to a beverage. And this is what I was getting at with the workplace thing, right? I think people are actually looking at the drinks that they consume in the working day and thinking, okay, what's it gonna give me in terms of health benefits, focus, productivity benefits? I guess as well, employers are also looking at it from the same perspective and thinking, okay, if we're gonna provide drinks to our staff, then we don't want them to be jittery by four o'clock. We want them to be mindful or able to focus on things or or what have you. Do you do you see do you see any other big trends in terms of workplace drinks um or even just the changing tastes of people? Um you you you spoke about coconut water. I mean, I I guess that's that's well into the culture now, isn't it? So so what's the what's the flavor that you think we will need to start discovering soon that people are going to start raving about?

Ambroise Leclercq 24:31

Well, I don't have specifically a flavor because it depends on the country, it depends on the market, it depends on the season. It's uh really difficult. But there is something, it's sugar. That's probably the obvious one, but it's less sugar and added benefits like vitamins and natural. So the more natural, the less add stuff there is in a drink, or to be honest, in any product, the more interest um a company workplace will will have. So that's one reason why why we target workplaces. It's because the how you call them workplace managers or the ones office managers, they're actually looking for that before what the employees or what the people are buying in supermarkets.

Marc Curtis 25:19

What um what's the what's the most popular flavor? What what are what are office managers and facilities people tending to reorder the most at the moment? I guess that's a question that we could probably ask at Lyrico as well if we're sub if if we're using your products. But um but it'd be interesting to get your take on it. And how does that vary as well, country to country? Are there are there big cultural differences across Europe?

Ambroise Leclercq 25:43

Yes. Um so for now it's really the coconut water that's booming in Switzerland. Switzerland represents 80% of our market. So we've been in Switzerland for now two and a half years, so we understood more or less what people were looking at, and that's that's natural drinks. But um, for example, in Belgium, coconut water is not a thing at all. So I don't know yet what the best selling product will be in the Benelux or just in Belgium, but maybe it's gonna be the natural energy because they are quite advanced. There are other brands that do natural energy drinks with mate, with other sort of sorts of of um energizing uh components. Um, but that's that's probably it. Or if we go to France, for example, where in Switzerland, or I think even in the Benelux, the vitamin market is extremely well developed, and you have many brands. In France there's almost none, or almost none. So this is good getting started. So it's really it's not not selling enough everywhere to tell you exactly what's what's gonna what's gonna work and what won't work because what we thought would work in Switzerland didn't or worked. So we have to see, but they're differently like every country has different trends, and then it depends also which kind of of environment. And you you mentioned before it's our go-to uh go-to strategy. Yes. It's a bit like uh what Red Bull did. I'm trying to give the audience another example, but so Red Bull did they targeted um nightlife. Say, okay, you can mix it and then with alcohol, whatever, and then sport. That's that's marketing. We have a completely different strat well, a similar strategy, but ours is okay, let's try and do something qualitative, good recipe, without as uh less as possible added things into the drinks, and then trying to target workplaces because it's where people spend most of their time. So if we want to have an impact every day, then that's the place to start, because that's where people spend at least probably eight hours of the day.

Marc Curtis 27:57

And have you had any uh have you had any challenges with operating in different territories around Europe? And obviously Switzerland is not specifically part of the EU, you're part of the the the Sugan territory. Is there I mean it I can see from your face it is.

Ambroise Leclercq 28:14

I'm sure you want to jump in the subject.

Marc Curtis 28:17

Well, I'm fascinated because because I know that for startups in Brussels, in Belgium, for example, it's a really, really tough regulatory environment. And I think I can imagine that for any kind of food or beverage-related things you've got that added layer of complexity on there as well, and a whole host of different standards that you have to adhere to. And it's very difficult, I think, for Belgian startups specifically to operate or they don't seem to be as keen to operate outside of Belgium. They either leave Belgium completely or they just stick to the Belgian market. There doesn't seem to be much of a middle ground. But you're based in Switzerland, and you've come to potentially one of the most complicated markets in in Europe in into the Benelux. So yeah.

Ambroise Leclercq 29:04

It's not an easy journey for a startup, or even probably for a big company. So there are different aspects. One is production. So we decided to produce in the EU and not in Switzerland because we already had in mind to be a European company, so we decided to produce actually in Belgium and probably not far away from you live. And then based on that, that already helps to market products because as you Switzerland is not part of the EU, then you have customs, and that can be quite painful and adds time and cost to moving products in and out. So that's that's one thing. And then the second thing is yes, indeed, it's complicated compared to Switzerland. Let's say Switzerland is a self-regulated market where okay, there are rules, usually they take the same rules as the EU, and then you need to be 95% perfect. And then if there is a small mistake on the label, on something that you didn't do well, they'll tell you, except if it's something that is a health issue, but if it's you know it's there, there they, for example, regulations about what can be and not be written on a label, and if there's a spelling mistakes or anything, then it's self-regulated. So they they'll come to you and they'll tell you, okay, you need to change that for your next production. Whereas EU is quite different because you have EU law, and then each country adapts it. So, for example, you have a depot system, which is in place in some countries. So basically, you know, when you there's like a five cents, ten cents, or five or fifteen cents, depending on the country, a depot price on the on the can, on PT, on aluminium, and then in some countries there is, some country there's not, and it's not a centralized system, so you need to go to each regulatory process to try and make sure that it's okay, it's legal in each country. And then some countries, even for certain types of beverages, for example, if you add vitamins, like in Belgium, you need your product to be approved before it enters the market. But it's like everything. If you if you need to do it, if you can, I mean you can do it.

Defining Success Impact Plus Profit

Marc Curtis 31:21

Well, it's that it sounds like basing and manufacturing in in Belgium was a really smart move because I guess if you can get it working in Belgium, then effectively you can get it working anywhere in the EU, right? Finals, well, getting close to a final question. What does what's the end goal here? What does success ultimately look like for you for MAD? Where do you want to take this?

Ambroise Leclercq 31:42

Success is well, it's a double success, as as I mentioned before, impact. And so our the success has to be a sustainable financial and an impact uh success. Our goal is to, by 2030, is to raise 1 million euros. We are about today, I think we in the first 22 years, two and a half years of existence, we raised about 70,000 euros um for the impact project. And the goal essentially is to arrive at 1 million. Essentially about 20 million cancelled. Okay, that would be that would be that would be the goal.

Marc Curtis 32:23

And that would indicate that you're you've got a successful brand as well because you're you're rotating um enough enough units to to hit your uh to hit your your contribution goals. And what about you personally? Is that you in it for the long haul? Do you have a sorry I'm talking over you, but do you do you have a you know are you with with mad for the long term? Are you looking to find uh uh schweps to to invest?

Ambroise Leclercq 32:51

I mean we're not there yet. Um goal is to is to develop the company and to distribute as much and to sell as much as possible. If we can do it ourselves, and if it grows, if we can still bootstrap it from the start, like we did, and continue that way, then that's a that's probably my preferred way, but it's gonna be slower. And then if there's an investor that comes or a big company, because essentially drinks, it's about distribution. It's not necessarily about how good your drinks are. I mean, they need to rotate, they need to sell, people want to have it, but it's essentially is how well can you distribute it. And this is it takes time. So for example, in Switzerland, we're across because it's B2B2C, you need to convince wholesalers, let's for example distributors and wholesalers, and this takes time. It's my code.

Startup Advice Pain Persistence Sales

Marc Curtis 33:43

Somebody's got a very good sneeze in the background there. Um sort of penultimate penultimate question then. Startups are I think if you're not in the startup world, then meeting somebody who has built or been part of building a company from scratch almost feels like a magic, you know, some kind of magic process. But if you had to give one piece of solid advice to somebody, you know, maybe to the empire from five years ago, just just about to start his military service, what what advice would you give to somebody who has aspirations to create something like this?

Ambroise Leclercq 34:18

High tolerance for pain. I mean it's it's true, but it's um it's a long journey and it's it's uh the advice would would be to start as early as as possible. Um and and it's gonna sound um I should say cheesy, but keep dreaming. So it's um yeah. Uh and and also um I mean try and keep the be financially sustainable as fast as possible. Meaning in our case, it's so we had with first we were focused really on on on impact, which we are still, but then now our co focus has shifted. Okay, let's it's essentially let's try and find customers, customers every day. Let's try and sell, sell, sell, sell. Prospecting, leads, follow-ups. And essentially that's that's the most important because without any sales, well, the company is useless.

Marc Curtis 35:18

It's absolutely and I guess I guess even if you've got the the core belief in your company, the DNA of your company is about doing you know, making a difference, doing good, at a certain point you have to accept the fact that you can only achieve that goal if you if you do all the other things that companies have to do, which is do the hard yards, find find customers, work on the flavors, work on the supply chain, work on the markets, all that all all of the I won't say quote boring stuff because it's not boring, it's super exciting, but but in a way the core vision has to be to kind of be at the service of all the other stuff as well, really. You have to you have to have all that. It's not enough just to have a vision to make a change, you have to then be pragmatic about what that looks like in terms of business.

Ambroise Leclercq 36:09

Yeah, absolutely. You need to be pragmatic about it. I mean, that's what keeps us going is the long-term goal, and and and and and that's because it's a cool brand and we have good products and we drink probably 20 cats a day, each of us. So we like what we're doing. So that's that's that's really what what keeps us going and moving forward. But then it's also to accept. I mean, I have another answer. Um something that I learned. Um, because I didn't I never I mean, it's not like I never worked before, but I really started my professional journey as as a entrepreneur and to start a company is to accept no as a word. And in a sense, something we're not used to in studies because then it's a bad grade, good grade, or if you work in a company, it's fine okay. But it's to go to people and try and find customers and have lots of negative responses until you get one. So it's it's about cheering and enjoying the yes and the and the step forwards and then quickly forgetting about all the setbacks and and yeah.

Marc Curtis 37:16

I I always remember I always remember somebody telling me, and it and it really has always resonated with me, especially if you're a startup founder, which is that no's are fine, but maybes are absolute killers. If if people aren't clear with you, if they if if they're not if they don't give you a clear response, then you can waste so much time trying to convince people, trying to change stuff, whereas actually a no can be super helpful because it means you can just move on straight away and and and get on with the next thing, right?

Ambroise Leclercq 37:43

Absolutely, yeah. And then also adapt yourself. Like if we're working with big or small companies, big customers and small customers, it's not the same pace. So need to be patient. Which is better. Well, both are good because one you can quickly generate revenue, and the other one probably the volume is higher, but it takes way more time to set up. So you need to be confusing. Yeah, I'd rather talk to one person that has a hundred points of sales and that can generate then a bigger impact than to talk to a hundred different people for each of them one point of sales. But you you need to convert in order to convince the big one, you need to show that you've got smaller customers that are using your product or service or whatever in order to convince the big one.

Marc Curtis 38:32

That's an interesting question. And I think if I were a startup listener to this, I it's probably the question I would want to ask, which is actually how do you get to talk to how do you get a an in with a company like Lyrico or or a big retailer or a big distributor? Is it is it luck, is it contacts, is it is it persistence, or a bit of all of that?

Ambroise Leclercq 38:55

It's a bit of all of that, and it's persistence, I'd say, and trying to find the right people to talk to that are open to discuss a concept like mad for for their portfolio or for their their their business. So no, it's it's persistence, I'd say.

Inspiration And Closing Invitation

Marc Curtis 39:13

And luck. Yeah, absolutely. And luck, yeah. Well, this is it. I think it's it's finding champions to a certain extent as well. Okay, so I've got a final question for you. I always ask, it's a format point, but I always ask this at the end of the interview. If there's one person or one um, and it can be anybody throughout history, it can be any anybody in business, it can be somebody you know, but if there's one person who's really inspired you to do what you're doing, or has inspired you to take the steps that you've taken, who would that be?

Ambroise Leclercq 39:45

Ah, quite a few. Um Well, it's not necessarily well, I I have a few business people in mind, but the one that I want to say is um it's a writer, a French writer called Sylvain Tesson. I don't know if you know him. But um he's I mean it's not an entrepreneur per se, but uh he's traveled the world by foot, by bike, by country, and he's a sort of a poet. Um and he recently, two years ago, broke his back and was half paradized. And then the way he uh I say got healed was to walk front the entire front. Wow. So that's pretty inspiring. That's a good answer. I wish I could I wish so that's and it's something that I love to do with my free time is to walk with a tent and to be walking to make a fire. So I'd say it's because in adversity I think it's when highs are highs and lows are lows, it's it's if you have a something to aim for, which for him was the get healed and to walk of I don't know, 3000 kilometers. Um it's quite inspiring.

Marc Curtis 41:12

That is that's a great answer. I like that. I like that a lot. I'm gonna check him out now. Thank you so much for that. That was that was super interesting. I know that we're gonna see you at the future work event in June on June the 18th. And I'm super looking forward to not only meeting you in person but also to taste some of the uh taste some of your rotating products, and we'll try and rotate as many as possible on your on your stand. But for now, Ambrois, thank you so much for taking the time to speak to me and um really looking forward to talking to you again soon.

Ambroise Leclercq 41:43

Thank you very much Mark.

Marc Curtis 41:49

Well, they don't seem to be as keen to operate outside of Belgium. They either leave Belgium completely or they just stick to the Belgian market. There doesn't seem to be a much of a middle ground. But you're based in Switzerland and you've come to potentially one of the most complicated markets in in Europe into the Benelux. So yeah.

Ambroise Leclercq 42:12

It's not an easy journey for a startup, or even probably for a big company. So there are different aspects. One is production. So we decided to produce in the EU and not in Switzerland because we already had in mind to be a European company, so we decided to produce actually in Belgium and probably not far away from you live. And then based on that, that already helps to market products because as Switzerland is not part of the EU, then you have customs, and that can be quite painful and adds time and cost to moving products in and out. So that's that's one thing. And then the second thing is yes, indeed, it's complicated compared to Switzerland. Let's say Switzerland is a self-regulated market where okay, there are rules, usually they take the same rules as the EU, and then you need to be 95% perfect. And then if there's a small mistake on the label, on something that you didn't do well, they'll tell you, except if it's something that is a health issue, but if it's you know it's there, there are, for example, regulations about what can be and not be written on the label, and if there's a spelling mistakes or anything, then it's self-regulated. So they they'll come to you and they'll they'll tell you, okay, you need to change that for your next production. Whereas EU is quite different because you have EU law, and then each country adapts it. So, for example, you have a depot system, which is in place in some countries. So basically, you know when you there's like a five cents, ten cents, or five, fifteen cents, depending on the country, a depot price on the On the can, on PT, on aluminium, and then in some countries there is, some country there's not, and it's not a centralized system, so you need to go to each regulatory process to try and make sure that it's okay, it's legal in each country. And then some countries, even for certain types of beverages, for example, if you add vitamins, like in Belgium, you need your product to be approved before it enters the market. But it's like everything. If you if you need to do it, if you can, I mean you can do it.

Marc Curtis 44:29

Well, it's it sounds like basing a manufacturing in in Belgium was a really smart move because I guess if you can get it working in Belgium, then effectively you can get it working anywhere in the EU, right? Finals well, getting close to a final question. What does what's the end goal here? What does success ultimately look like for you, for MAD? Where do you want to take this?

Ambroise Leclercq 44:50

Success is well, it's a double success, as as I mentioned before, impact. And so our the success has to be a sustainable financial and an impact uh success. Our goal is to, by 2030, is to raise 1 million euros. We are about today, I think we in the first 22 years, two and a half years of existence, we raised about 70,000 euros um for the impact project. And the goal essentially is to arrive at 1 million, essentially about 20 million cancelled. That would be that would be that would be the goal.

Marc Curtis 45:31

And that would indicate that you're you've got a successful brand as well because you're you're rotating um enough enough units to to hit your uh to hit your your contribution goals. And what about you personally? Isn't you in it for the long haul? Do you have a sorry I'm talking over you, but do you do you have a you know are you with with mad for the long term? Are you looking to find uh uh schweps to to invest in?

Ambroise Leclercq 45:59

I mean we're not there yet. Um goal is to is to develop the company and to distribute as much and to sell as much as possible. If we can do it ourselves, and if it grows, if we can still bootstrap it from the start, like we did, and continue that way, then that's a that's probably my preferred way, but it's gonna be slower. And then if there's an investor that comes or a big company, because essentially drinks, it's about distribution. It's not necessarily about how good your drinks are. I mean, they need to rotate, they need to sell, people want to have it, but it's essentially is how well can you distribute it? And this is it takes time. So, for example, in Switzerland, we're across because it's B2B2C, you need to convince wholesalers. Let's for example users and wholesalers, and this takes time.

Marc Curtis 46:49

It's my co- Yeah, some somebody's got a very good sneeze in the background there. Um sort of penultimate penultimate question then. Startups are, I think if you're not in the startup world, then meeting somebody who has built or been part of building a company from scratch almost feels like a magic, you know, some kind of magic process. But if you had to give one piece of solid advice to somebody, you know, maybe to the empire from five years ago, just just about to start his military service, what what advice would you give to somebody who has aspirations to create something like this?

Ambroise Leclercq 47:26

High tolerance for pain. I mean it's it's true, but it's um it's a long journey and it's it's uh the advice would would be to start as early as as possible. Um and and it's it's gonna sound um I should say cheesy, but keep dreaming, so it's um yeah. Uh and and and also um I mean try and keep the be financially sustainable as fast as possible. Meaning in our case, it's so we had we first we were focused really on on on impact, which we are still, but then now our focus has shifted. Okay, let's it's essentially let's try and find customers, customers every day. Let's try and sell, sell, sell, sell. Prospecting, leads, follow-ups, and essentially that's that's the most important because without any sales, well the company is useless.

Marc Curtis 48:26

It's absolutely and I guess I guess even if you've got the the core belief in your company, the DNA of your company is about doing, you know, making a difference, doing good, at a certain point you have to accept the fact that you can only achieve that goal if you if you do all the other things that companies have to do, which is do the hard yards, find find customers, work on the flavours, work on the supply chain, work on the markets, all that all all of the I won't say quote boring stuff because it's not boring, it's super exciting, but but in a way the core vision has to be to kind of be at the service of all the other stuff as well, really. You have to you have to have all that. It's not enough just to have a vision to to make a change, you have to then be pragmatic about what that looks like in terms of business.

Ambroise Leclercq 49:17

Yeah, absolutely. You need to be pragmatic about it. I mean, that's what keeps us going is the long-term goal, and and and and and that's because it's a cool brand and we have good products and we drink probably 20 cats a day, each of us. So we like what we're doing. So that's that's that's really what keeps us going and moving forward. But then it's also to accept. I mean, I have another answer. Um something that I learned. Um, because I didn't I never I mean it's not like I never worked before, but I really started my professional journey as as a entrepreneur and to start a company is to accept no as a word in in a sense, something we're not used to in studies because then it's a bad grade, good grade, or if you work in a company, it's I don't care. But it's to go to people and try and find customer and have lots of negative responses until you get one. So it's it's about cheering and enjoying the yes and the and the step forwards and then quickly forgetting about all the setbacks and and yeah.

Marc Curtis 50:24

I I always remember I always remember somebody telling me, and it and it really has always resonated with me, especially especially if you're a startup founder, which is that no's are fine, but maybes are absolute killers. If if people aren't clear with you, if they if if they're not if they don't give you a clear response, then you can waste so much time trying to convince people, trying to change stuff, whereas actually a no can be super helpful because it means you can just move on straight away and and and get on with the next thing, right?

Ambroise Leclercq 50:51

Absolutely, yeah. And then also adapt yourself. Like if we're working with big or small companies, big customers and small customers, it's not the same pace. So need to be patient. Which is better? Well, both are good because one you can quickly generate revenue, and the other one probably the volume is higher, but it takes way more time to set up. So you need to do that. Um I'd rather talk to one person that has a hundred points of sales and that can generate then a bigger impact than to talk to a hundred different people for each of them one point of sales. But you you need to convert in order to convince the big one, you need to show that you've got smaller customers that are using your product or service or whatever in order to convince the big one.

Marc Curtis 51:40

That's an interesting question. And I think if I were a startup listen to this, I it's probably the question I would want to ask, which is actually how do you get to talk to how do you get a an in with a company like Lyrico or a big retailer or a big distributor? Is it is it luck, is it contacts, is it is it persistence, or a bit of all of that?

Ambroise Leclercq 52:03

It's a bit of all of that, and it's persistence, I'd say, and trying to find the right people to talk to that are open to discuss a concept like mad for for their portfolio or for their their their business. So no, it's it's persistence, I'd say.

Marc Curtis 52:21

And luck, yeah, absolutely. And luck, yeah. Well, this is it. I think it's it's finding champions to a certain extent as well. Okay, so I've got a final question for you. I always ask, it's a format point, but I always ask this at the end of interview. If there's one person or one um, and it can be anybody throughout history, it can be any anybody in business, it can be somebody you know, but if there's one person who's really inspired you to do what you're doing, or has inspired you to take the steps that you've taken, who would that be?

Ambroise Leclercq 52:53

Ah, quite a few. Um it's not well, I I have a few business people in mind, but the one that I want to say is um it's a writer, a French writer called Sylvain Tesson. I don't know if you know him, but um he's I mean it's not an entrepreneur per se, but uh he's traveled the world by foot, by bike, by country, and he's a sort of a poet. Um and he recently, two years ago, broke his back and was half paradised, and then the way he uh I say got healed was to walk France the entire front. Wow. So that's pretty inspiring. That's a good answer. I wish I could I wish So that's and it's something that I love to do with my free time is to walk with a tent and to be waking to make a fire. So I'd say it's because in in adversity I think it's when highs are highs and lows are lows. It's it's if you have a something to aim for, which for him was the get healed and to walk of I don't know, 3,000 kilometers. Um it's quite inspiring.

Marc Curtis 54:20

That is that's a great answer. I like that. I like that a lot. I'm gonna check him out now. Thank you so much for that. That was that was super interesting. I know that we're gonna see you at the future work event in June on June the 18th, and I'm super looking forward to not only meeting you in person but also to uh taste some of your rotating products, and we'll try and rotate as many as possible on your on your stand. But for now, Ambroye, thank you so much for taking the time to speak to me and um really looking forward to talking to you again soon.

Ambroise Leclercq 54:51

Thank you very much, Mark.

Marc Curtis 54:53

Really fascinating to listen to some of those challenges. And as I said, he will be participating in a panel around sustainable growth at the Future Work Conference on June 18th in Brussels this year. And if you would like to find out more about him, I've put the uh link to his brand, Mad Drinks, in the description of this podcast. Um, so thank you so much again for listening. We would love to see you at the Future Work Conference. Please go to the website futurework.eu. The link is also in the show notes description. Um hopefully we'll see you there. But otherwise, I will hope to talk to you soon with our next podcast. Thanks a lot.